Episode #47 – Dr. Julie Cappel

Do you work in the animal health industry or veterinary profession? Have you ever wondered how people began their careers and how they got to where they are today? Hi, everyone. I’m Stacy Pursell, the founder and CEO of The VET Recruiter, the leading executive search and recruiting firm for the animal health industry and veterinary profession. I was the first recruiter to specialize in the animal health industry and veterinary profession in the United States and built the first search firm to serve this unique niche. For the past 25 plus years, I have built relationships with the industry’s top leaders and trailblazers. The People of Animal Health podcast highlights the incredible individuals I have connected with throughout my career. You will be able to learn more about their lives, careers, and contributions. With our wide range of expert guests, you will be sure to learn something new in every episode. Thanks for tuning in, and enjoy the episode.

Welcome to The People of Animal Health podcast. On today’s show, we are talking with Dr. Julie Cappel. Julie is an author, life coach, podcaster, speaker, and veterinarian with a diverse range of experiences. She is a practicing small animal, avian and exotic veterinarian, a successful business owner, a devoted wife, and a loving mother of two amazing adult children. Julie understands the pressure of balancing a demanding veterinary career with a family life that is rich with experiences and love. Having personally navigated these challenges, Julie has also faced and conquered the feelings of being overworked, overweight, overwhelmed, and underappreciated. Her personal journey has led her to a place of self-love and enjoyment of her abundant life. She wrote a book titled Love Your Veterinary Career where she talks about those struggles and how to overcome them. She now coaches with compassion and humor, specializing in helping individuals find themselves, regain their confidence and build the life and career they’ve always dreamed of. Julie does The Veterinary Life Coach podcast, and I was recently a guest on Julie’s podcast. Well, Julie, welcome to The People of Animal Health podcast. And how are you today?

I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Well, Julie, I’m so glad to have you here. I would love to start off at the beginning. What was your life like growing up? And where did you grow up?

I grew up in well, Detroit, Michigan, the suburbs of Detroit, so in southeast Michigan in a subdivision in a normal small house with two sisters and my parents. It was a pretty ordinary growing up, I would say, with lots of pets because my mom was an animal lover, so we always had a lot of pets where I was growing up. And I spent my pretty much entire life in Michigan. It’s where I went to school and that is where I owned my practice.

Well, Julie, you’ve had a diverse career as a veterinarian, a life coach, author, and podcaster. Can you share what inspired you to transition from veterinary practice to coaching? And how do all of these roles complement each other?

Well, I’ve always been one of those people that loves self-development and loves self-help. Even when I was a kid, I loved all the self-help books, all the woo-woo stuff sometimes people call it. But I was really interested in that, in leadership and also veterinary medicine. Being an animal lover, I was interested in that. And so that’s how I started looking into life coaching, writing, podcasting, things like that. The transition from being a veterinarian, which was always my life goal, owning my own hospital, which was a life goal of mine, getting to that point in my life where I had the family, I had the hospital for 22 years, I had pretty much accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish, but because I’m such a self-development leadership self-help junkie, I really was driven to try something else. I really love to challenge myself.

And so as my kids grew up and I got them out of the house and got them to college, I started to think about what my next challenge would be, and I decided that I wanted to do something to help the profession. Still working in practice but owning the practice was something that I felt like I had done for long enough. Solved the same problems over and over again, and I wanted to try something new so I started looking at what would I do? I had no idea because I never had another dream. It was always vet med. And so I just started looking around on the internet. What kind of jobs are out there in vet med? What could I do? And also do some relief work and stay in practice because I really enjoy practice.

And I stumbled across some podcasts on life coaches. And I started listening to them and I started looking into what does a life coach do? How do they help people? I didn’t understand what it was. And so once I started really diving into it, I felt like it took all of my loves and combined them into one big ball of goodness. I could help people, I could continue self-development, help other people develop themselves, personality profiling, business management, leadership. It encompassed everything that I love. And I started looking into it. I started getting coached myself to see what it felt like, and I just loved it. And my daughter was like, “Mom, this is the perfect job for you.” And it is. And so that’s how it came about.

Your book, Love Your Veterinary Life, touches on overcoming feelings of being overworked and overwhelmed. What was the turning point for you? And how did you start to reclaim balance in your life?

Yeah, I don’t know that I would call it a turning point per se. When you are a veterinarian and you’re working full time and you have children and you’re a wife and you have a house to keep up and you have pets and you’re managing a veterinary hospital with all that goes on there with the clients, I think that you can easily get into that space of feeling overwhelmed and overworked. And so I would say that I had those periods of time when I thought, oh, I don’t know if I can keep doing this. It’s too much. And so I think there were little turning points along the way.

When I had my children, I decided that I was going to get the hospital that I wanted, not necessarily start from scratch, but have a place that could run without me. If I wanted to be with my kids, I had that option. I wanted to be the boss, so if I wanted to close the hospital for a day or bring my kids to work or whatever I want to do, I had the power to do that. And so I think it was just maybe more of a slow realization that I could design my own life if I chose to. And it really didn’t have anything to do with getting coached because I knew nothing about it at the time, but I just decided that overworking myself and being in that space where you feel miserable every day because you’re just trying to juggle all the balls was not the thing to do, and so I started taking steps to set some boundaries.

And I think I’m of the generation where we all overworked ourselves, and so I think we expected that to be a normal thing. But I think it starts to really affect you, and in my case, it started to affect my health a little bit. I was using food for stress relief. I became an overeater, a binge eater almost. And I think I just decided that that wasn’t the way I wanted to live, and so then I started to get looking into more of how I could change that for myself.

Yeah, that’s good. And now balancing a veterinary career with family life is no easy task. I have two questions about that. What strategies helped you personally manage your practice and family? And then also, what advice would you give for… Because most veterinarians graduating from vet school today are female. You were successful in raising both the family and having a successful veterinary business. What strategies helped you personally manage your practice and family? And what advice would you give to other young female veterinarians with a family that might be thinking, I want to own a practice, but just don’t know how I would do it with balancing a family as well?

Yeah, I think sometimes when we think about the word balance, we think that it’s got to be half this and half that. And I think in truth, it’s really taking your family that is a big priority and also your career that’s a big priority and trying to blend them. Some people call it work-life harmony or some people call it seasons. I think that the balance word is a little bit challenging for people because they think it has to be I’m going to spend half my time with my kids and half my time in the hospital.

And the way I looked at it was more like when is it really important for me to show up for my kids? And when do I want to show up at home and be the best mom I could be? And what do I need to do to keep my hospital afloat and keep the people happy there? And so for me, it was more prioritizing what was important, which was always my kids came first. That was always my mantra. But when you’re a working mother, you can’t be there every second of the day, so you have to change your mindset to, okay, I am being the best mother I can be by demonstrating to my family that I can be a good business person. I’m teaching them lessons. I’m teaching them lessons when I show up to their events. I’m teaching them independence when I’m not there. And so just thinking of it as something that I am doing for myself to be the best person I can be.

And because I’m happy being a working mother, I’m going to show up better when I’m at home with my children. Because I had the kind of personality that I think if I’d have stayed home with my kids full time, I would not have been happy. And if your mom’s not happy, she’s not going to show up the way she needs to show up. That would be maybe not so much a strategy, but that would be part of my advice for other veterinary professionals is do what you love to do to the point that your kids see that example; that they can love what they do. And it may not be easy and they may have to put in a few extra hours here and there, but if they see that you can succeed in your dreams, then that’s a really great life lesson for them.

And then the other thing would be to just pick those times when there’s a choice between work and home and really dig deep and say, “What’s more important here?” And so there are times when my hospital didn’t make money because I wasn’t there. There were times when I had to delegate things to other veterinarians, there are times that I had to send people to specialists because I couldn’t be there to do the surgery. And even though that is a little guilt producing in us, it’s also what’s right for your family. I don’t think of it as a 50/50 split of balance, I think of it as taking care of yourself and your own wants and needs but also being able to set boundaries when you need to be there for your family. And I think that’s what really makes us feel more balanced.

That’s such good advice. I like to call that work-life integration rather than work-life balance, as you explained it. Well, as a coach, Julie, what are the most common challenges you see veterinary professionals face? And what are your top tips for overcoming those obstacles?

I think the biggest thing that I hear from my veterinarians and practice managers and people that I coach is they have a big fear of making mistakes and they also have big imposter syndrome. And those two things go together. We are very much perfectionists, most people that go into this career. We very much care about our patients and our clients. And because we have this deep empathy and this deep love for what we do, we get very fearful about making a mistake and what that means about us. And that whole fear brings us into that imposter syndrome like, well, maybe I’m not the best person to do this. And who am I to take a spleen out of this dog? And just not feeling competent and confident in what we do.

And what I usually tell people is if you can think about the mistakes that we make in life as 100% human, 100% normal and non-intentional, if you make a medical mistake, it’s horrifying and it’s very upsetting, however, in order to do the work we do, you have to take that risk or else you’re just paralyzed in fear. You have to quit that med. And in order to do something really valuable and really important in the world, you have to take those risks. And so what I talk about a lot with the people that I coach is asking them things like, “How would you feel about this mistake if someone else made it? Would you judge them? Would you think that they were a bad veterinarian? Would you think that they shouldn’t be in vet med?” And that usually switches that chihuahua brain, I call it, off so you’re not beating yourself up so much because you can give yourself some compassion. That self-compassion is really important.

And then the imposter syndrome is just look at what you’ve already accomplished. And we forget how hard it was to get into veterinary school. We forget how hard it was to get through veterinary school. We forget all the cases that we worked really hard and that we cured because that’s the thing that our brain forgets. But if we try to remember those, it will diminish that imposter syndrome.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Nobody’s perfect. And I like what you said about not having that fear to hold you back. Well, you’ve built a successful podcast, The Veterinary Life Coach podcast. How did the podcast come about? And what topics resonate most with your audience?

The podcast came about when I first started into my life coaching training. A lot of people I noticed had podcasts, and I didn’t know anything about it. I had no technical skills whatsoever. But my sister, my youngest sister, Jill, has a true crime podcast that she’s been doing for years. And she was doing it at the time. And I talked to my kids about it. I said, “What do you guys think of a podcast? I think a lot of people have them, and I think it would be great to get this information out to people for absolutely free.” Because my big goal in being a life coach is to help other people that work in the veterinary field, so the more I can get out there to them, the better.

I started writing a blog, and I still have my blog out there, but I thought the podcast would be a better way to reach. I called my sister, I asked her, “How do you do this thing?” And my son wrote some music for me and helped me do the sound editing and my daughter did all the graphics. And so I integrated or took all my family skills and turned it into The Veterinary Life Coach podcast. And now it’s been going on for several years. And I really love it. And it’s very much evolved into what it is today. It started with just me talking at people, and now I do a lot of interviews. And I really love it. It’s a lot of fun.

It was a family effort. And I was impressed that you have more than 300 podcasts, because I think I’m at 47 now.

Yeah. Well, if you just keep doing it, that’s how you accomplish any goal. You just do it week after week and eventually you get to 300, which surprised me as well.

Yeah. No, that’s great. Well, I know that leadership is a central theme in your career. What key leadership skills do you believe are essential for veterinarians, especially those managing their own practices?

Yeah, I love leadership. It’s always been a really fun thing for me to think about and do. I think probably the skills are more about your own self-development. I think you really have to know yourself well. You have to do some personality profiling. You have to understand your own way that you communicate to people and understand yourself so that you can be open to all the things that happen as a veterinary leader. It’s one of those things that is as varied as our veterinary practices, the leadership part of it, because you just never know what’s going to happen.

And so I think that if you are managing your own practice or you’re a leader in any way, and I consider people that are veterinarians and technicians all leaders, everybody can lead no matter what position you are, I think that the biggest thing that you want to do is get to know yourself well, be open to criticism from other people. And I was very much a collaborative leader, and I think that’s really important. Serving the people that you’re leading and also listening to the people that you’re leading, because if you can get the people around you on board, then you’re not dragging them along. You’re almost behind them, supporting them so they can do the job that they need to do. And that includes the communication, the listening skills, and then just having a real strong sense of what you want out of your team as far as their values. And what morals do you want your practice to hold onto or promote?

Yeah, that’s good. Well, Julie, you’ve experienced and conquered personal challenges like weight management and feeling undervalued. How do you integrate your personal journey into your coaching practice? And what advice would you give to someone facing similar struggles?

Well, I think everyone has to understand that life is struggley. We struggle. I don’t know if struggley is the word, but it’s normal. And I think sometimes we expect to be happy all the time, and I don’t think that that’s useful. The biggest thing that I like to teach people is, look, we all have something or multiple things. I had the stress-eating thing for a long time; that took me a long time to get over. I also had this story in my head that I was not a good writer and I didn’t know how to write, and so that kept me for writing for a good chunk of my life.

And so I think overcoming those things involves, first of all, figuring out what they are, which sometimes is hard to do by yourself, so you might have to get a coach or a therapist or someone to help you figure that out. I knew I was a stress-eater, but I didn’t have the first idea how to stop that and how to fix that. You can do all the diets and all of that stuff, but it’s really about mind management, and so you have to sometimes reach out for help. And then when you’re feeling like you’re struggling in any part of your life and you don’t know why, that’s when you really have to step up and get someone to help you figure that out. It’s getting into that brain and figuring it out.

And the way that I integrate that into my coaching is I’m just honest with people. I tell them all the bad things that happened to me. People come to me and say, “Oh, I had a patient die under anesthetic.” Well, guess how many times that happens to people. I had a bird die in my hand one time when I was drawing blood. It’s devastating. I understand that. Just helping people to see that all humans struggle, all humans have these issues and that they can be overcome with a little bit of work and a little bit of help and thinking differently and just having a little compassion for yourself when you are having bad times in your life and that that’s all okay. It’s all normal. And that’s how I use what I’ve been through to help others. It’s that built in empathy that you get because you’ve been there.

I like what you said about having compassion for yourself. That’s important. Well, with more than 20 years of experience as a practice owner, what were the biggest lessons you learned in business management and employee relations that you now share with your coaching clients?

I think one of the biggest lessons I learned because of a failure of my own was to trust your people but also have a little bit of healthy skepticism for all of your practice. Because as a business owner, you’re in charge of everything. You’re in charge of the money, you’re in charge of the payroll, you’re in charge of everything. And if you get complacent and you delegate all the things to someone and they decide to undermine you or cheat you in some way, you will lose a lot. And I went through that. I had a manager that was doing things that I didn’t realize. And I trusted her to the nth degree and it bit me in the behind. And so that’s one of the lessons I always say, “Sign your own checks, check on all the credit card bills.” Really keep a finger on the pulse of your practice. Doesn’t mean that you can’t delegate, but it means that you do have to check in.

And then as far as employee relations go, I think caring for your team is the best thing that you can do. Really love the people that you work with, really love your clients. And it might sound weird, but I think that if you really care about them and you want them to have the best career that they can have, you want them to love their job as much as you do, that caring and that listening and that being open to them, it’ll pay you back 100 because those people will then always have your back, they will always be on your side. And then you’ll have so much more fun. I really like to have fun in my practice when I owned it. The more fun stuff we could do, the better it was for me.

Yeah. Well, it’s important to have fun. Work is hard, it can be stressful at times, but enjoy while you’re doing it. Well, you’ve been heavily involved in veterinary associations and served as president for both the Southeastern Michigan Veterinary Medical Association and the Michigan Veterinary Medical Association. How has your involvement in these organizations shaped your perspective on the veterinary profession?

Well, I love organized veterinary medicine, and I started it pretty early on in my career mostly because I was working for two men that owned my practice originally, and they were very much involved in it, and so they set a good example for me. What I think is so fulfilling and important about it is, first of all, when you get involved in your associations and you start to volunteer, or it can be something as simple as just going to some of their events, you meet so many veterinarians and people that work in our profession that you would never meet if you stayed in your own little practice. The first thing I love about it is it gets you out into the world of vet med and meeting all the people. Some of my very dear friends now are people that I met serving on the Southeastern board and the Michigan Veterinary Medical Association. That’s the one thing I love about it so much.

I also love it because it’s leadership based. It teaches you a lot of leadership skills. It teaches you communication and how to work in a group with a bunch of other very strong-minded, strong-willed people. I love that about it.

And I also think the way it shaped my view of the profession is it’s taught me that the profession is very deep and very wide. There’s so many different jobs that you can get in this profession. There’s the state veterinarian that used to come and give us reports when I was on the MVMA board. There are people that do all these different things. The Humane Society veterinarians were involved, lab animal medicine, all the things that you don’t always think of on the day to day. And I think just being in a room with them quarterly, or whatever the meetings are, teaches you all the different perspectives. And the legislative part of it is all involved in the state organization. It broadens your viewpoint of our profession and it also just shows you how wonderful veterinarians are. Every veterinarian that I ever met on any organization that I’ve ever been in has been lovely. And they’re just wonderful people. And so I always encourage people if you’re young in the profession to get involved in some way. And if it’s intimidating to you, reach out to somebody like me that’s already been involved because they will welcome you with open arms. The organizations that run our profession are very welcoming. And I think it’s just a great way to broaden your horizons and become a better leader in vet med.

Well, you can learn something from everybody. Even if they’re in an area of veterinary medicine that you’re not involved with, you can learn something about that part of veterinary medicine. And I think building a network is so important.

Absolutely true. Yep, networking is a big word.

Well, what advice do you have for veterinarians who want to build a fulfilling career while maintaining personal wellbeing, especially in such a demanding field?

I think my best advice for veterinarians is just to love yourself, respect yourself, know that you’re a worthy human no matter what happens, and that you are an important part of the world. I often say to veterinarians, “There’s so many people out there that you touch in your life that you will never know; the pets that you save, the people.” Some people come back and tell us that we changed their life doing a euthanasia or that we changed their life by doing a surgery on their pet or something. But most of the people never come back and tell us how we impacted them, and I think every single person that we touch, we impact them in some way. And it’s so important to realize that about yourself. And so my advice is just love yourself well and remember that you are worthy of all good things.

Yeah, I love what you said about recognizing the positive impact that you’re having on so many people even if they don’t take the time to let you know the impact that you’ve had.

Yeah, sometimes they’ll come back years later and say, “Hey, remember when…” I have people to do that all the time. “Remember that time when my bird almost died and you saved it?” And blah, blah, blah. They’ll say, “I got 20 more years out of that bird.” And they’re thrilled about that because you did something valuable for their life, and you may never know it because they may not come back and tell you.

That happens to recruiters too. I placed a PhD with a major animal health company, and six months later I got this card in the mail, and he said, “Thank you for changing my life.” It was such a surprise to get it. It was six months later.

Yeah. When it’s hard and you’re struggling, just think about those people out there that wouldn’t have the outcome that they had, the positive outcome that they had had you not been there. And so we’re very much a needed profession.

That’s so true. Well, what has been the most surprising thing to you during your career in the veterinary profession?

That’s a hard one, but I guess the surprising thing to me is how much this one little job affects people in a positive way, more so than human medicine almost. It’s surprising to me how many people are so much more attached to their pets than they are to anyone else in their life and how important that pet becomes to them. And I think it’s not really a surprise of the veterinary profession, but it’s a surprise in the way that knowing how important we are to the world and what a great thing that we do every day. And I think that has been surprising to me. When I started out as a vet, it was more about me loving animals rather than how much people would depend on me and be happy to come see me. So many clients come in and it’s like, “Oh, I love coming here.” And that’s surprising, because who likes to go to their dentist or their doctor? I don’t think anyone does.

Well, Julie, how have you seen the profession change over the years?

Oh, gosh. I think the biggest thing I’ve seen change is the specialties that we have now. They’ve expanded so much. The emergency clinics that we have now have expanded so much. Our knowledge base has expanded so much. And I really do think the most positive change I’m seeing now currently is that people are really understanding that in order to stay well as a veterinarian that they have to do some work to take care of themselves. And I think that change in and of itself is turning our profession around. And that’s why I wrote my book and that’s why I started doing what I do, because I want people to really stay in our profession, but stay in the place of really taking care of themselves while still doing it and still offering this service. That’s so important.

What does your crystal ball say about the future of the veterinary profession?

I wish I had a crystal ball sometimes. We always joke about that in the clinic. Oh, let me consult my crystal ball. I guess if I had to make a guess about our future is I think it’s really, really bright. I think that more and more people are finding us more and more valuable. More and more clients are willing to pay for our services than they were in the past. And I think that if we can keep ourselves healthy and care for ourselves and understand that veterinary medicine can be a huge part of your life but it isn’t your total life, that I think everything’s going to be well, and we’re just going to continue to have this amazing group of people doing what we do.

What are some of the daily habits that you believe have helped you to achieve success along the way?

Well, I’m one of those people that loves to think I’m going to have a daily schedule that’s very much regimented, but because I’m one of those people that also sees a squirrel and goes off in any general direction at any given time, I think that my habits are sometimes spotty. But I do think a really important thing is to ground yourself in the morning. Whether it’s reading your Bible or it’s doing some journaling or it’s meditation or yoga or whatever really works for you, trying to have something while you’re sitting there drinking your coffee that gives you a little bit of peace and alone time. And that’s especially important if you’re a parent. I usually got up earlier than my kids just for that reason, so that I could have 30 minutes of peace before the chaos erupted.

And I guess another daily habit, and it doesn’t end up happening every day, but I think you have to get yourself out of the house and do something. I’m very much a doer, so for me, that’s natural. But I think that going out for a walk or going to meet someone, a friend, just getting up and doing something that’s not vet med that’s not related to your job or possibly your family, get away from your family for a few minutes is super important. And I think if you can have a good morning routine and you can have a little bit of self-care every day, that then you’re going to be set up for success.

Yeah, that’s so good. What would you say is the biggest challenge that you’ve had to face throughout your career?

I think what was really challenging for me is the times when the people that I employed didn’t work out and weren’t trustworthy or for whatever reason weren’t working out. And I think having that challenge of being a very trusting person and a very much a people pleaser, I want to have everybody happy, and sometimes you get into those situations where it’s not working. And so if you have that feeling that this person is cheating you or this person isn’t serving your clients well or they’re not treating your staff well, that feeling of being uncomfortable in that and having to make those hard decisions for my practice was really difficult.

And I definitely had a manager that was not treating my people well. And it was bad because I didn’t realize it at first, and then when I realized it, I kept trying to make it not so because I loved this person a lot. And so that was tough for me, is getting to the point where I was like, okay, I have to make a decision here. It’s not going to be comfortable. And it’s not what I want to do, but it’s what I have to do. And so I think for me, that’s what’s tough.

Yes. Well, what advice would you give the younger version of yourself?

I would say worry less, because I have a tendency to be a little bit of a worrier about what’s going to happen tomorrow or what’s going to happen next week. Or what if? What if? I would say to let that go. And I would also say to be more trusting of your instincts, because sometimes you have the instinct, but you fight it, the logical part of your brain fights it. And so trusting your gut is super important.

And then that was advice you’d give to the younger version of yourself. What message or principle do you wish you could teach everyone listening to our podcast?

I would be happy if everyone would understand two things. The first one is that life is supposed to be good and bad. It’s supposed to be happy and sad. And so if you’re having a bad day, it’s just a bad day. And you can overcome it, you can get through it. And don’t expect every day to be perfect. The other one would be to love yourself and understand your worth, because I think we’re so hard on ourselves, and it’s so unnecessary. And it just causes extra suffering that you don’t have to have in your life.

Well, that’s great advice. Well, Julie, some of our guests have said they had a key book that helped them approach success. Is there a key book in your life that has impacted you the most? I’d love to hear that story.

Oh. Well, I like to read, and I’ve read a lot of books. I love, love, love the James Herriot books. Obviously as a veterinarian of my era, most of us we’re really into those books. But as far as helping yourself, I love The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Achor. It really teaches us what that means and how you can change your mindset to be more happy. I like Presence by Amy Cuddy. The John Maxwell books on leadership. I love a lot of his books. And one I just read recently that was wonderful is called Deconstructing Anxiety. And I can’t remember the author’s name, but that is a really interesting book on how anxiety works in our lives and how we can get better at handling it and get over it, basically. Yeah, there’s a lot of books. I have a whole list.

Yeah, you do have quite a few. Well, that’s good. Well, Julie, you’ve got the mic. What is one thing that you want to share with our listeners of The People of Animal Health podcast before you drop the mic today?

I guess my one thing that I would share, and I’ve already said this, but if you are struggling, and you will at some point in your life because you’re human, it’s okay to reach out. It’s okay to talk to someone, whether it’s a relative or a coach or a therapist. Reaching out to someone is what humans need to do to feel that sense of belonging. And so I really want people to understand. And that’s why I started The Veterinary Life Coach. I want people to understand that you can have a beautiful life in vet med, you just have to do a little bit of work to get yourself figured out. And even when you do figure yourself out, you’re still going to have those struggles and it’s still going to be work, but it’s such good work. It will change everything for you.

Well, thank you, Julie. It was such a pleasure to have you here as my guest today on The People of Animal Health podcast. It was fun because I got to be on your podcast this week and then you were on mine. I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you. And thank you for being here, Julie.

I’ve loved it. Thank you so much for having me.