Episode #78 – James T. Penrod

Do you work in the animal health industry, or veterinary profession? Have you ever wondered how people began their careers, and how they got to where they are today? Hi everyone. I’m Stacy Pursell, the founder, and CEO of The Vet Recruiter, the leading executive search, and recruiting firm for the animal health industry, and veterinary profession. I was the first recruiter to specialize in the animal health industry, and veterinary profession in the United States, and built the first search firm to serve this unique niche. For the past 25 plus years, I have built relationships with the industry’s top leaders, and trailblazers. The People of Animal Health Podcast highlights incredible individuals I have connected with throughout my career. You will be able to learn more about their lives, careers, and contributions. With our wide range of expert guests, you’ll be sure to learn something new in every episode.

Thanks for tuning in, and enjoy the episode. Welcome to the People of Animal Health Podcast. Today, I am joined by Jim Penrod, Chief Executive Officer of the American Association of Veterinary State Boards. Since 2015, Jim has led the AAVSB in advancing veterinary regulation, and supporting professionals across 63 jurisdictions in the US, Canada, and US territories. With more than 30 years of leadership experience in professional regulation, and association management, Jim has earned numerous honors for innovation, and service, including the Veterinary Innovation Summit’s Innovation Award. His dedication to collaboration, integrity, and public protection continues to shape the future of veterinary medicine. Welcome to the People of Animal Health Podcast, Jim, and how are you today?

I’m doing well, Stacy. Thanks for having me.

Well, so glad to have you here, Jim. I would love to start off at the beginning. What was your life like growing up, and where did you grow up?

Well, I was born in New York, but moved from there when I was three years old to Ohio, and I grew up basically in Ohio. I actually went to receive a degree in landscape architecture through the Ohio State University. And from there, I moved out to Virginia where I spent 30 years until I came to AAVSB.

Well, how did you get into the world of veterinary medicine?

Yeah, so interesting story. I served at CLARB, which is the Council of Landscape Architectural Registration Boards for 24 years. I got out of school, I worked for a couple of firms in landscape architecture, and then I started my own business as a land planner. I used to do large developments, and those kinds of things around Virginia, and some of the surrounding states. And times got a little difficult, the economy went south, and so I had to go find a different job. And so I got into association management, and moved through the ranks all the way up to chief operating officer at CLARB, and then wanted to take the reins of association, and just happened to work out with AAVSB about 10 years ago.

Well, Jim, you’ve spent more than three decades in association leadership from your early work at CLARB to your current role as CEO of the AAVSB. What drew you to the world of professional regulation, and association management in the first place?

Well, it’s funny. Nobody says as a kid that I want to be an association professional when I grow up. So, I think you have to find that as it comes along, and that’s exactly what happened to me. But I think as I’ve been in association management for the past few decades, I really feel like I’ve made a difference in the professions I worked for. And so that’s really been what I feel has been the mark I’ve been able to leave on the professions that I’ve served.

Well, the AAVSB serves 63 jurisdictions across the US, Canada, and US territories. For listeners who may not be familiar, how does the AAVSB help ensure public protection within veterinary medicine?

Several different ways. One of the largest things that we do is we create model language, both statutory, and regulation language that is used by those 63 jurisdictions when they create their practice acts, and create their regulations around veterinary medicine. We also do CE approval. Many of you probably know our RACE program for licensure renewal. We also help licensees. We send their credentials when they apply for a new license in different jurisdictions, as well as we develop the VTNE, the examination for veterinary technicians so that they can become licensed where it is possible in the United States, and Canada.

Well, Jim, you received the 2019 Innovation Award at the Veterinary Innovation Summit. Could you share what that innovation was, and how it’s shaping the veterinary regulatory landscape today?

Yeah. And again, I started in 2015. One of the first things that we developed was a strategic plan for the organization. So, I worked with the board of directors at the time to create that strategy. One of the strategy items was around telemedicine, or telehealth. And we took that on in about 2016, obviously a big topic, and it took a committee of volunteers about two years to develop some language around telemedicine, and telehealth. And so in 2018, the membership approved our practice act model, which included the ability to create a virtual VCPR. And I believe that’s really what led to the award that I received at the Innovation Summit in 2019, thinking about proactively, how are these things going to impact veterinary medicine, and making sure that we define how it works rather than someone from the outside doing it for the profession.

Well, having also worked extensively with the Council of Landscape Architectural Registration Boards, what lessons from that field have informed your leadership, and innovation at the AAVSB?

And I think regulation is really similar across most professions. Obviously, the details when you get into the professions matter, but when you think about regulations, and statutes, and those kinds of things, it’s all pretty much the same, but really it’s all about protecting the public, and giving access to care, and those kinds of things. And so doing what we can with technology to provide those opportunities, and to think about how can we get those folks that have pets, or even food animal, those kinds of things, how can we get them access to veterinary care when for so many it’s out of reach. And trying to figure that out, I think is where we try to innovate around our regulatory perspectives here.

Well, over your decade with AAVSB, how have you seen the regulatory needs of veterinary professionals evolve, especially with the rise of telehealth, cross-border practice, and workforce mobility?

Yeah, obviously telehealth is still very controversial. It’s interesting that there are some jurisdictions that have adopted regulations around telehealth. The first one really being Ontario, Ontario’s had regulations in place for telemedicine for, I don’t know, six, or eight years, and they really haven’t seen too many complaints related to practicing through telemedicine. So, that’s been an interesting thing, but again, still controversial in the profession. More recently, I think we’ve seen a rise in relief vets because the students that are coming out of college now seem to want to do the 8:00 to 5:00 kind of work rather than the hours that perhaps in the past many veterinarians took on. And so I think we’re seeing more relief vets that are working in multiple jurisdictions.

They need to get licensed in more locations, and that’s made a difference in the work that we do here for AAVSB. And then obviously most recently is the VPA, the Veterinary Professional Associate being approved in Colorado. And it was important for my board with AAVSB to think of it as not do we support this profession, or believe in it, or whatever, but how do we protect the public when these folks actually graduate from school, and get out, and begin to practice? So, that’s been what our focus has been with the VPA.

Well, now, Jim, you’ve been recognized with several honors, including the Distinguished Association Executive Award, and election as a fellow of the ASLA. How would you describe your personal philosophy of leadership that has guided these achievements?

Yeah, I think it’s really being compassionate, being transparent about what I’m doing, being open. And one of the biggest things are the people around you, and I feel like that I’ve been able to effectively lead those teams to perform at their best. And I think that’s what’s really helped out in all the roles that I’ve achieved over the time of my career. So, I’ve appreciated the folks around me.

Both at CLARB, and the AAVSB, you’ve emphasized data-driven, and innovative strategies. How is technology transforming the way regulatory organizations operate, and collaborate today?

Yeah. Obviously the biggest thing in the marketplace right now is artificial intelligence. And for those that don’t know, we produced a white paper AVSB did on artificial intelligence, and how it needs to be regulated. This year, we’re working on putting together a committee task force that’ll actually be looking at creating some regulations around artificial intelligence, and how it’s used in veterinary medicine, both from an administrative perspective, data privacy when people are using scribes, and those kinds of things, all the way up to how can it be used in medicine as far as diagnosis, and those kinds of things, and making sure that it’s used appropriately, and protects the public when it is used in those cases. We also, more internally, we have had a centralized licensure database since the late ’90s. And one of the things that we’ve been striving for over the past few years is to set up these connections with our members, and receive daily updates on licensee information, things like when they’ve achieved their license in a particular state, or province, when it may expire, those kinds of things.

And the goal of all this is to have an on demand system where regulatory boards can simply look up someone’s name, and see if they’re in good standing, which I think will make a huge difference in how quickly someone’s able to get licensed.

Yeah. Well, as a former chair of the CAE Commission, what do you see as the biggest value of professional certification for association executives, and how has the CAE program evolved to meet modern challenges?

I think it’s really about the journey to achieve those certifications, the education that you need to do, the studying that gets you to a place where you’re ready to achieve that certification. When I was on the commission, the chair of the commission, the way that we recognized continuing competence began to change, that it’s not just continuing education, but there’s other ways to demonstrate continuing competence, even self-assessment, those kinds of things. We also added an ethics component at the time, which I thought was really critical, and I think would be something that every profession can benefit from if there’s a requirement to think about ethical behavior, and making sure you’re doing things properly.

That makes sense. So, with members spanning multiple countries, what are some of the challenges, and rewards of cultivating collaboration among such diverse jurisdictions in veterinary regulation?

Well, interesting enough, I just came back from New Zealand, and I was with veterinary regulators from around the world, and you might think that practice is different in other countries, but frankly, when it comes to regulation, we’re all dealing with the same issues. And one of the things that we talked about quite a bit, which is termed right touch regulation, which simply means that set the regulations as simple, and as light as you can because frankly, 90% of regulatory issues are controlled by the licensee themselves, and then maybe another eight, or 9% by the folks around them, their coworkers, their corporations, those kinds of things. And really it’s that last 1% when regulation really needs to kick in for perhaps the bad actors that are ignoring, trying to help protect animals in the public.

What is on the horizon for the AAVSB, and for you personally as you look to the next decade of supporting veterinary professionals, and advancing public trust?

Yeah, the big thing over this next year is going to be the VPA exam. We’re developing that, as I mentioned, to make sure that once these professionals graduate, and get out into practice, that they’re not harming the public, or animals. And the one thing that I want to achieve with this examination is to look at it more as [inaudible 00:17:08] excuse me, a competency-based assessment versus a knowledge-based assessment, because frankly, many exams, our profession knows the NAVLI knows the VTNE, and they’re mainly knowledge-based. And you have to spit out what you learned in school, and demonstrate that when you get out into the profession, you have the minimum competence to thrive. But with artificial intelligence, and even with Google these days, anyone can have knowledge at their fingertips, but it’s really, how do you demonstrate that knowledge, and how can you take that knowledge, and apply it to what you’re actually performing?

And so when we’re looking at the VPA exam, we’re looking at how can we create the examination of the future basically, which is looking at someone’s abilities versus can they just demonstrate some knowledge that they picked up in their education?

Hey, everyone. We are interrupting the episode briefly to talk to you about today’s sponsor. This episode is brought to you by The Vet Recruiter. The Vet Recruiter is the go to executive search, and recruitment firm in the animal health industry, and veterinary profession dedicated to connecting exceptional employers with high caliber candidates, with a deep understanding of the animal health industry, and veterinary profession, and a vast pool of talented candidates, we make the hiring process seamless, and efficient for the animal health, and veterinary employers who have critical hiring needs. If you are an employer in search of top talent, or you work in the animal health industry, or are a veterinarian ready to take the next step in your career, look no further than the vet recruiter. The vet recruiter has placed many of the industry’s top leaders from CEOs to COOs to chief veterinary officers to VPs of marketing, and sales, and heads of R&D, and chief scientific officers.

We have built sales forces for many leading animal health companies, and have placed more veterinarians in clinical practice than any other search firm in the US. Ready to take the next step? Visit the vetrecruiter.com today. That’s thevetrecruiter.com. And now let’s get back into the episode. Jim, what has been the most surprising thing to you during your career up to this point in the veterinary profession?

Oh, really just how compassionate the people are, and how accepting they were when I came into the profession. It really is a group of wonderful people that are trying to do the right thing. And I feel like putting more things in their hand. I spoke about right touch regulation, and relying on the doctor to make more decisions rather than dictating what they can, or can’t do, I think is something that we can achieve over the next few years.

That’s really good. And how have you seen the profession change over the last decade since you’ve been involved?

Well, it is a profession that is quite… I can’t think of the word, but I’ve seen technology embraced sporadically over the period of time that I’ve been with AAVSB. As I mentioned, telehealth is embraced by some, not by others. Artificial intelligence is beginning to be adopted by many, especially in medical recordkeeping, even some ways just in general practice. So, I think technology is really changing things, but slowly because the profession is very conservative, and they want to see proof of things before adopting them. And so I think that’s what’s really been my perspective on the profession is that it is a little slow to change, but when things are proven to be effective, then people grab onto those, and try to do the right thing.

What does your crystal ball say about the future of the veterinary profession?

I attended an event recently, which was very interesting. And there was someone that really understands technology, and the world around us, and how things are moving, how quickly ChatGPT is being adopted by many folks. And the biggest thing that came out of that for me was that the pricing model in veterinary medicine will probably be changing over the next several years. And one of the things that this gentleman talked about was moving towards more of a insurance-based, or risk-based model where a veterinarian may provide the full scope of things that a pet owner needs from food through all obviously the services, and the drugs, and things, and basing that model on a guarantee like, I can get your dog to live to be 15 years old if you follow my model here, and if they don’t, then I’ll give you your money back, or twice your money back.

So, I thought it was an interesting concept that if a veterinarian is in complete control over the animal’s health, and welfare, and has the appropriate check-ins, and things, the public will probably pay for that, and pay for, I’m going to have a long life with my pet, or my animal. So, I do think that that’s going to be the biggest change that happens is with prices rising, and the way the population has taken on pets more as their children rather than their property, I do believe that the model for how care will be delivered will change.

That’s really interesting. Well, Jim, what has been the biggest adversity, or challenge that you’ve had to deal with during your career up to this point?

I think I’ve always strived to do things quickly, and get things done fast. And in some cases, that’s not been beneficial to me. For example, when I was at CLARB, I moved the examination, which was a paper, and pencil examination to a computer delivered examination, and unfortunately picked the wrong vendor, and had to correct that along the way. And so what I’ve learned from that is to really do my due diligence, and think about how to move forward, how to get people to buy in. In particular in an association, you have members, and you support those members, but if you get too far out in front of your members, then it can be problematic. So, trying to keep them to think strategically, and think about the future is always something that I think I’ve struggled with, because I’m trying to get a lot of things done, but just trying to get them on board so they can see the positives of what we’re trying to create.

What are a few of your daily habits that help you achieve success?

I think the biggest thing is I start the morning quietly with a couple cups of coffee, and think about the day ahead, and really think about how as an organization we can make a difference. When I come to work, one of the things that I always do is have meetings with my team, and try to brainstorm new ideas, figure out how we can collaborate to come up with things that will benefit the profession as we move forward as an organization.

What advice would you give the younger version of yourself?

Well, I think that communicate, communicate, communicate because the lack of facts that people have, they make assumptions, and many times they make incorrect assumptions. And so I would tell myself now that make sure that people understand what you’re working on, what you’re trying to accomplish, communicate that so that they know the facts, and they don’t come up with their own story that may not be correct.

That’s so good, because we live in a world of miscommunication. What message, or principle do you wish you could teach everyone listening to our podcast today?

To be curious. I found it very beneficial. We have what we practice called generative conversations. And in talking with others, you may hear something, and you don’t agree with it, but if you ask questions, and you’re curious about why that individual came up with that reasoning, a lot of times you can get to the bottom of it, and understand their perspectives. So, rather than making judgments, I think stepping back, and asking questions, and being curious about what led that individual to come up with their perspective. If everybody could do that, I think we’d have a much better world, and a much better way to communicate with one another.

Asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, some of our guests say they’ve had a keybook that they read that helped them along the way. Do you have a keybook in your life that’s impacted you the most?

Yeah, there’s a book called The Future of the Professions, and when I read that, it really made me think about my role in the regulatory world, and how that can impact the way the professions are going to evolve over time. I think we’re beginning to see that. If you read the book, one of the things it talks about is the increase of paraprofessionals. And I think that’s what we’re seeing exactly right now with the VPA, and with greater use of veterinary technicians. I just think that for those that haven’t read that book, if they do, it’ll give a greater understanding to why the profession perhaps needs to change, and why the veterinarian needs to think at a higher level, and do the things that only they can do, and not what others can do to support them.

Jim, you’ve got the mic. What is one thing that you want to share with our listeners of The People of Animal Health Podcast before you drop the mic today?

I think it’s based on that curiosity question. Dig into the facts, and don’t believe everything here because there’s a lot of misinformation out there. Try to understand before you make judgements, and I think that would benefit us all in the profession.

That is excellent advice. Well, Jim, thank you for being my guest today on The People of Animal Health Podcast. It was a pleasure to have you here. I enjoyed our conversation.

Great to be with you, Stacy, and I always love to talk to you at events, and see you around the veterinary community, so look forward to seeing you in the future.

Look forward to it, Jim. Thank you.

Okay. Bye now.