Episode #50 – Dr. Eleanor Green

Do you work in the animal health industry or veterinary profession? Have you ever wondered how people began their careers and how they got to where they are today? Hi everyone. I’m Stacy Pursell, the founder and CEO of The VET Recruiter, the leading executive search and recruiting firm for the animal health industry and veterinary profession. I was the first recruiter to specialize in the animal health industry and veterinary profession in the United States and built the first search firm to serve this unique niche. For the past 25 plus years, I have built relationships with the industry’s top leaders and trailblazers. The People Of Animal Health podcast highlights the incredible individuals I have connected with throughout my career. You will be able to learn more about their lives, careers, and contributions. With our wide range of expert guests, you’ll be sure to learn something new in every episode. Thanks for tuning in and enjoy the episode.

Welcome to The People Of Animal Health podcast. On today’s show, we are talking with Dr. Eleanor Green. Dr. Green is a trailblazer in veterinary medicine, known for her exceptional leadership and contributions to the profession. Currently, the founding dean of Lyon College School of Veterinary Medicine in Arkansas, she also holds the title of Professor and Dean Emerita at Texas A&M University, Dr. Green’s distinguished career spans practice ownership, academic leadership, and groundbreaking initiatives in veterinary innovation and education. With numerous awards and presidencies of major veterinary organizations, she has left a lasting mark on the field. Welcome, Dr. Green.

Thank you. It’s great to be here with you, Stacy. First and foremost, I want to tell you that we have known each other for many years, but this is the first time we’ve had the opportunity to sit down together like this and share with others. And I want to point out how much you do for the profession, practices and the individuals within our profession. So thank you very much.

Well, thank you so much. I’m so excited to have this opportunity to talk with you and we have known each other for many years, and you’re one of my favorite people in the profession, and I always enjoy seeing you in our conversation, so I’m excited. So let’s go. So Eleanor, let’s start off at the beginning. What was your life like growing up and where did you grow up?

Well, I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, while my father was in medical school at Temple University, and he actually married my mother, a native Pennsylvanian, there. And when he got out of med school, we moved back to Tampa, Florida when I was six months old. So I feel a bit like a native Pennsylvanian and a native Floridian or maybe a man without a country, so to speak. I grew up actually in an urban environment. We lived on an island called Davis Island in Hillsborough Bay in Tampa. So much of my early life involved water, swimming, water skiing, boating, sailing, fishing, and all of those. I love the peace that water brings to you, but also animals were a very prominent part of my life, especially horses. I consider animals to be the great teachers of life if we listen. They’re pure of intent, they’re loyal, they’re non-judgemental and forgiving, and they’ve certainly enriched my life.

A little bit more about that, I grew up in an animal-friendly home and I can’t remember not having animals. And we had lots of animals of many different species in this urban setting. We had a lot of dogs, we had a lot of cats, we had rabbits, pocket pets, even parakeets, canaries, macaws. And even though we lived in the city, at various times, our backyard housed homing pigeons, and we also raised some calves and goats on the bottle there. And much to my mother’s dismay, one time my father turned our grape arbor into a coop to raise quail and pheasants to repopulate native Florida. So I’ve been around animals all my life, and I can tell you a little bit more about horses as we go along, but that’s my real passion, is horses.

I love that. I love the water too. Going to Florida is one of my favorite. It’s one of my favorite places to go and I love being by the water. So you grew up with animals. You had parakeets. I had a parakeet too when I was growing up and I had lots of animals: rabbits, cats, had a mouse once, but I didn’t grow up near the ocean. I grew up in Texas. But Eleanor, when and why did you decide to become a veterinarian?

I think the short answer is I couldn’t think of a better way to combine medicine and animals, and especially horses. I do have deep familial roots in medicine. Medicine is a common career path in my family that includes physician surgeons and one psychiatrist. And while these relatives offer a glimpse of what a medical career could look like, I really point to my father, who is a surgeon, who served as the chief of staff at Tampa General Hospital as my primary inspiration. He was really one of those people who just had an unwavering integrity, a remarkable work ethic and an exceptional devotion to his patients, his career, his profession, and of course, his family. And throughout my life, I heard how great he was from others, from his physician colleagues, his nurses, the office staff, community leaders, ministers and others.

I used to go with him on hospital rounds, on weekends and witness how he interacted with his patients. And when he walked into the room, an uncanny calm permeated the room and his patients really trusted him. And I got to see how much a profession of service could mean to people. And the level of trust and appreciation for my father was palpable. And as a result, our home was filled with gifts from thankful patients and we never paid for a Christmas tree, and I still have, and treasure, a painting of a gray workhorse in harness that was one of his grateful patients painted for him. And I used to sit in the swivel office chair under this painting, and later, I put that painting over my office chair where it served as a constant reminder of him and our values and why we do what we do.

I love that. What inspired you to be part of the establishment of the Lyon College School of Veterinary Medicine, and how does it reflect your vision for the future of veterinary education?

I saw a quote the other day that I just love. I believe you can dream beyond your capabilities, but it’s hard to outperform your dreams and aspirations. Isn’t that powerful? And I suppose I’ve always been driven by an unrelenting pursuit of excellence for me and for wherever I’ve participated, whether it’s in practice or academic settings or the profession itself, the animal industries. And my entire career, except for four years in practice, has been devoted to academic veterinary medicine, and it has been good. I stepped down as dean at Texas A&M to consult and operate a small performance Quarter Horse operation west of Fort Worth. And most of my consulting was with Mark Cushing and Animal Policy Group. Mark has become a sought after consultant to guide veterinary schools through the COE accreditation process, and I pitched in to help him with some of the newly developing veterinary schools.

Lyon College School of Veterinary Medicine was one of those, and it really caught my eye. It’s a small, private liberal arts college that thinks big. Lyon was in the process of creating a one health institute that started with veterinary medicine and dentistry. So what was the appeal of this very small liberal arts college, which was very different from the state funded land grant institutions where I had worked all of my career, including my education? Lyon is a private college. It’s actually free from the increasingly oppressive bureaucratic requirements of state-funded institutions that we’re all experiencing and witnessing. And that permitted innovation and flexibility with the ability, quite frankly, to turn on a dime. And when I learned about them, I was in, hook line and sinker. And when I shared with Melissa Taverner, the president, that I had a lot of crazy ideas and I said, “We don’t have to do them all,” and she responded, let’s do them all.” And so I love that philosophy of this school.

There are other pieces of this segment in my life, this chapter in my life that I think are really important. And I’ve looked back over decades trying to work as a teacher, as a clinician, as an administrator, how do we really serve the profession best and how do we really teach our students the best? I think too often, students are spectators at university. I want students to be active participants in their learning and actually contributors to the database. And sitting in a lecture hall for hours a day listening to an expert share his or her knowledge is not effective or enjoyable. And certainly, there are wonderful teachers you can think of who made lectures engaging and inspiring, but even those all day long is too much. There was a survey of 18 to 36 year olds, and only 40% of them said learning was fun. How sad is that? Learning must be fun. Life long learning must be fun we have to instill in these students.

And another thing is speaking. This is another thing that inspired me to go to Lyon. When we think about data, we have to address the issue of information overload. I saw some figures the other day that medical information doubles every 72 hours. And another way to look at that, if students were required to read two refereed articles every day during their curriculum at graduation, they would be 800 years behind. Students cannot memorize today what they need to know. They need to learn to access, assess and apply information rather than memorizing. And they will naturally memorize what they apply frequently. And there are some ways that we can make learning fun and that we can manage this information overload, and one of them is gamification. The extended realities, YouTube bursts of information. We need to think about what inspires students, and most importantly, we have to prepare our students for the future, make them future ready.

People say they want their students to be career ready. I agree. But if that’s the goal, on day two, they’re already out of date. And I found another quote that I just love that applies there. In a world of change, learners shall inherit the earth while the learned shall find themselves perfectly suited for a world that no longer exists. How about that? The world is changing. We need to learn to adapt with it. And my friend, Larry Gatlin said one time when we were having a philosophical conversation, he said, “I learned to find the truth and set it on fire.” And I think that’s what we’re about today. So this was an opportunity to reimagine veterinary education, starting with a blank slate, and we’re going to create a very special veterinary school at Lyon College.

It’s so exciting and so inspirational too. How are they progressing? When will the school admit the first class?

Well, our ambitious goal is fall of 2026 to allow the students to come in. That’s very ambitious and certainly, we have to go through and want to go through all the steps the COE requires. We have already gone through our consultative site visit. We’ve responded to their questions and we’ve asked for a comprehensive site visit. We’re supposed to hear this month. We’re all on the edge of our seats. And if we get a comprehensive site visit, I think we’re ready to soar ahead because we’ve got some really good people who want to come to Lyon and be a part of this, and we can’t open that door until we get that approval for a comprehensive site visit.

So awesome. I have a question. I want to get your opinion on something because this has been a debate I’ve heard where some practices expect the veterinarian, once they graduate, to be practice ready on day one. And then some people say no, that they’re not going to be ready when they graduate, that it’s a practice’s job to make them practice ready. I’m curious about what are your thoughts on that?

I think we’re trying to define that too tightly. What does practice ready mean? Does that mean that as a veterinary student, you’ve gotten about all you can get in veterinary school and you’re ready to apply and practice? And if that’s the definition of practice ready? Yes, we are. Are we trying to graduate somebody that can operate the level of a 10-year experienced veterinarian? Then that’s not going to happen. But I do think that we can provide a lot of opportunities that can make a veterinarian as practice ready as we can.

Years ago, we had equine veterinarians who were telling the schools that they were not doing a very good job of giving students the core competencies that they needed to practice with them and for them to be able to pay them what they want. And so what we did is we created a task force, and we got all this input. We got practitioners involved and said, “Look. What do you want a graduate veterinarian to know on day one?” You would not believe the simplicity of that list. We actually were already doing all that. And of course, we have embellished core competencies and we’re trying to get students as ready as we can, but you know what? They’re going to learn a lot on day one.

And another piece of that, it’s one of the reasons I’ve always been in a traditional veterinary schools with the veterinary teaching hospital. And yes, I am very supportive of that model. I think one of the things that the distributive model offers is students to get a lot of experience in the environment in which they will be working, and they will get to see a lot of different types of practices and different veterinarians practicing in different ways, and they can sort of pick and choose and apply what they want to do when they get out. I think the distributive model is amazing. It’s not better than or worse than, it’s different than a traditional school. So I think we’ve got to step up and accept this as a very viable model for educating veterinary students.

And Eleanor, you have held numerous leadership roles at prestigious institutions. How did your experience as a rural practice owner shape your approach to leadership in academic and also with large animal veterinary medicine?

I learned a tremendous amount in private practice in a very small rural community. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I always wanted to go to Ocala or Lexington and do all equine. I ended up marrying a classmate who wanted to go back to his hometown in a small rural town in Northeast Mississippi. It was a rural community with a population of 300 total. And again, it was delightful. What we talked about was if we did this, we would either both love it and he could get it out of his system. And if it didn’t work for us, we could change it in a day. So we did that. And like I said, I wouldn’t trade that for anything. He had 60 acres with a home and an old dairy barn on it, and we actually, we lived in that home right next to our practice. We converted that dairy barn to be a very progressive and beautiful practice, and it had indoor working facilities for cattle. It had stalls for hospitalizing horses. It had indoor lameness, exam area stocks. It had a lot. So it was a very progressive practice at the time.

What did I learn? How to create something of value, how to do that ourselves. And I also learned how to approach any new situation and make the most of it. I think private practice is where the rubber hits the road in veterinary medicine, and you have to live what is important, and that’s integrity at all times. I learned that. Excellence in every detail, the importance of client-centeredness and listening to what they want and providing what they want and what you know can provide for them. I learned a responsibility to my patients. I learned how to create a culture that we really wanted to work in and engage the whole team in that culture. And I learned that in private practice, everything’s up to you. So you learn to accept responsibility for the outcomes, whether they’re good or whether they’re not. I certainly learned trial and error communications, especially client communications, and I learned much about what to take on as causes and when.

And one small example of that, this is many years ago, but there were a lot of individuals in the area practicing without a license. And so what should we do about that? Should we challenge them or take them on or not? And we chose to say, “Look. They provided what a lot of people did not have in veterinary care, and they were also depending on that for their income.” And so we felt, “Look. Let’s let them practice. We’re going to come over here and provide a different level of care and we will attract the kind of clients we want, and they will continue to serve some others that don’t want to move. And I see this as a living example of access to care and spectrum to care. It’s not all one way. I think the-

So-

Oh, go ahead.

I was going to say that’s so interesting. Go ahead. I didn’t mean to interrupt.

Well, the only thing I was going to say is that in practice, you really get to experience firsthand the circumstances that face the referring veterinarians and the clients and patients that they refer to you. So when you’re in a referral hospital and that’s all you’ve ever seen, you’ve never lived what you’re referring veterinarians go through, and I’ve got a gazillion stories about that. If you want to hear them, I’ll tell them to you, but if not, we’ll just go on. But you get to live the life of what most of your veterinary graduates are going to live, and you get to help patients in their home environment.

So practice is a great training ground for achieving professional and personal success, balancing work and family. I was six months pregnant when I graduated. At that time, there was no childcare. I brought my baby to work. I took my baby on calls with me. We had a crib and a toy drawer in the practice, and it was a great practice builder because when people would come to our practice and they would bring their kids, those kids would learn to run straight to the toy room. And so again, it was a great practice builder, but I learned to create a culture of family first in that environment and the clients bought into that very well.

I love all of that. I always love hearing your stories, so I’m always wanting to hear any stories you want to share. I love what you said about just creating value. I love what you said about bringing your baby to work. I used to take my kids to veterinary conferences when they were babies and two years old. They grew up going to veterinary conferences and now I have three of my children that are working in the vet space. So I love all of that, and I’m picturing your dairy farm and all of that in my mind. So can you share the origins and the goals of the Veterinary Innovation Summit and how it has influenced the evolution of veterinary medicine?

Well, several have asked me recently how the Veterinary Innovation Summit was born. In short, it was patterned somewhat after the Exponential Medicine Conference now termed NextMed in California that’s headed up by Dr. Daniel Kraft. And of course, he was one of our keynote speakers at the Veterinary Innovation Summit. These conferences delve deeply into the future of human healthcare with very inspiring, cutting edge talented speakers. When I went to that conference, I really realized how much our world is changing. I even did the Singularity University Exponential Medicine Leadership Conference, which is a long conference. I think it’s a week or two, that brings people in from all over the world to look at the future of our world, not just veterinary medicine, but the world in which we live. It really made me realize that our world is changing and we have to adapt. We must adapt in our profession. It gave me a change mindset.

There’s a backstory though. Dr. Adam Little and Mark Stephenson from LifeLearn gave a futuristic talk at the AAVMC Dean’s Leadership Conference in Native Florida, and they really talked about the same philosophy. And I tackled both of them after their presentation and invited them to come to Texas A&M to speak with our faculty. In fact, I invited them back twice. I felt like it would be better for our faculty to hear it from someone else than just from me. And this led to the creation of an innovation office, an innovation initiative within the Dean’s office at A&M, and Adam Little ultimately even accepted a 25% appointment remotely to lead this effort. And the Veterinary Innovation Summit was then born from this initiative and has become an annual event. Texas A&M was able to partner with NAVC to provide a very high quality and well-organized summit. And I think collaborations are always better if you want something to be really good.

I believe this was the first Veterinary Summit devoted entirely to the future. I don’t want to claim that and have someone come up and say I’m wrong, but I don’t know of another one. And we are all very proud of the Veterinary Innovation Summit and all it’s accomplished. I think the Veterinary Innovation Summit has sparked an interest in the future of veterinary health throughout the profession, support for startup companies, pitch competitions, networking, and so much more.

Now we can’t take full credit, of course, but today, many are becoming future-facing at a level that could only be imagined earlier. When I left Texas A&M, they chose not to continue to be sponsors of the VIS. Yet, I was on the board of the Veterinary Innovation Council and they were certainly helping with that through NAVC and the Veterinary Innovation Summit has accepted full responsibility to keep this going, continuing to be working with the NAVC.

Some other innovations that sprung from this innovation initiative, which I’m very proud of, are the Veterinary Entrepreneurship Academy, which Adam asked if he could start that within the vet school, and the answer is yes. And he worked with Rob Trimmel on that. And what we ended up was having students who were able to have an educational experience going out with startup companies or even some established companies that had innovation pieces in their businesses. It was very successful. We never meant, and this is another thing I think is really important, we never meant for this to be owned by or limited to A&M. And so I encouraged Adam and Rob to make this of national expanse, and we did that. A lot of other veterinary schools sent students to this. I think every student has really enjoyed it.

And in addition to that, Rob Trimmel has some other… It’s kind of living on in some other initiatives that Rob Trimmel has, but this also led to the creation of Aggies Invent, which was a souped-up hackathon at A&M, where we brought students from all over campus, of medicine and ag and engineering, and we collaborated with the engineering school and they allowed us to use their entire engineering laboratories to create whatever these people wanted to create, whatever these excited students wanted to create. They worked on teams and you wouldn’t believe some of the things they came up with.

I think the other thing that’s important is along the way is helping others. Adam saw that he did not want to be full-time and the need came for full-time. And so we hired Aaron Massecar to help us at A&M. And this, through a step-by-step process, has led to Aaron becoming the executive director of the Veterinary Innovation Council. And Jeremy Kinney succeeded him and now he is a leader in one of the corporate groups, and I love to see people grow.

So I remain excited about the encouragement for innovation and the excellence that was prompted by these ambitious initiatives, again, including the Veterinary Innovation and Entrepreneurship Academy. And I think these are essential to ensure the success of veterinary medicine.

Well, I think you’re right. It’s the only summit that I know that looks to the future in veterinary medicine, or I think it was the first and the only one I’m aware of, but it’s one of my favorite events. I’ve gone to most of them. I didn’t go to the first year, but I think I’ve been to almost all of them since then, both at Texas A&M and now in Kansas City. So very highly recommend that event.

Eleanor, with your in the Veterinary Virtual Care Association and the Veterinary Entrepreneurship Academy, how do you see technology reshaping animal healthcare and veterinary practice?

Well, simply stated, technologies are reshaping veterinary healthcare and are going to continue to do so just as they are in healthcare. Technologies improve patient care, they increase efficiency, they can reduce costs. The improved patient care includes better, more accurate diagnosis, remote monitoring, better connections and communication between clients and veterinarians, personalized treatment and improved patient safety. Technology certainly enabled telemedicine and virtual care, and our smartphone, smartwatches and smart rings have become health devices for ourselves and for our animals, with similar capabilities now being developed in veterinary medicine. And technologies can increase efficiencies through improved access to electronic medical records, automation of administrative and clinical processes. Technologies are improving communications and collaborations and may provide a more data-driven approach to patient care. And a huge trend in human healthcare is quantified self quantified health. It’s claimed to be the future of human healthcare, and that is evolving over into veterinary medicine.

And another technology is AI, which is rapidly entering human and veterinary healthcare. We’re struggling, well, and by the way, in our daily lives, we’re struggling a little bit about knowing which company to use, where to use it, how can we depend on it, how accurate it is. And of course, there’s always the fear of the negative sides of AI through hacking and different things like that. And also, taking over, the supercomputer that takes over our lives and eliminates our jobs.

So there are certainly some fears out there, but quite frankly, AI is the future. I was watching the news this morning and they’re going to use AI to replace the chains in football games. And you wouldn’t have… Yes, you would believe, the conversations about whether this is good or bad are astounding. We like the chains. We’ve used them for 100 years. Why do we need to change? And those arguments about technology go on in every single piece of technology that comes up.

And the other thing about that is we push back on technologies, as every single medical technology advancement has been perceived as science fiction at first. When it first comes out, it’s science fiction. We don’t want it. We’ve got it right as it is now and as they become embedded, we say, “How could we have lived without it?” So [inaudible 00:29:25].

My son is studying AI at the University of Oklahoma. My daughter just graduated from Texas, A&M and just got a job at an animal health company. But my son is studying AI and he just helped a company in veterinary medicine work on a project using AI. So they’re in a beta mode right now. So I’m looking forward to seeing how that’s going to work for them. So I agree. Technology is the future.

Eleanor, as the first woman president of several professional organizations, what challenges did you face in breaking these barriers? And what advice do you have for women aspiring to leadership in veterinary medicine?

Well, I will never complain. I lived at a time when it was very difficult for a woman to become a veterinarian, and women were strongly discouraged from becoming a veterinarian. And interestingly, every step I take in my life, I ended up being on the front edge of those changes. So I don’t know if I’m a pioneer or if I just got placed in a time where you had to make those changes and every single place you arrived at was a first. For example, I learned, and I’m not complaining about this at all, it was the times, but I learned that the veterinary school at that time, if you were a female, they put your application in stack B and didn’t even look at it until you came back the second year because they wanted a woman to prove that she really wanted it.

I was asked in my interview if there was something wrong with me. Didn’t I want to have a family? How could I do both? How could I handle a 2000-pound bull? And so there are questions that are real, and I want to jump ahead to a story because I had, when I got to the University of Missouri, the president, the then president of the American Veterinary Medical Association was at our house, and he gave me a very heartfelt story about himself and his opinion of women in veterinary medicine. And he said, “Here I am, president of the AVMA, and I did not see a place for women in the profession.” That was in the ’80s, by the way. And he said, “Here’s why. And I want you to hear this.” Said, “I know how hard I work. I see how hard my wife works keeping the family unit. I did not see how it was possible for one person to do both.” So that’s heartfelt and sincere. Is that discrimination? Now we could argue that. I think he just didn’t understand. And the most important part of that discussion was in the end, he said, “Until I met you.” And he said, “I see, in watching you operate at the level professionally you do, and having this wonderful family that it can be done. You’ve completely changed my mind.”

So that is what my advice has always been, is to help others understand that your job is to do the best you can at all times. Do what’s right in everything you do. Commit yourself to excellence and be an exemplar for others. Create a culture of excellence and a spirit of camaraderie. This is your life. Live it as you intend and don’t let others define your life for you and do not listen to those who tell you you cannot do it or cannot be it.

And so I think another piece of that is if you do make it, be a mentor, find a mentor through your whole life, and celebrate when those whom you mentor succeed and even pass you. It’s interesting that sometimes, people will hold others down. They work so hard to get where they are, and they don’t want it to be too easy for others. They should make it easy for others. They should use their experience to clear the path for others. So you should be courageous, but kind, compassionate and gentle in everything that you do. I tell people to say yes even when they’re not certain. You got to stretch yourself. You got to learn and grow, and you got to help influence up, down, and across.

There are a couple of quotes that I’ve seen lately that just really resonated with me. I was watching the news again and they had a bit on Pope Francis. And he had invited a bunch of comedians to the Vatican and he said, “Humor exercises the link between hope and joy.” Always tell people to be light about things. Use humor. It really makes your life more enjoyable. It makes life more enjoyable for those around you.

Keep things in perspective. It’s easy to get drawn into ditches. It’s easy to become overwhelmed by challenges and to become cynical. It’s easy to lose sight of what is good. So one thing that I did that I encourage others to do is every single morning on my way to work in the car, I take inventory of my life. I still do that. And that makes me walk into my day every day ready to tackle whatever comes my way in a good frame of mind, in a positive spirit and not get overwhelmed. And that has been one of the most powerful little practices that I have done.

Such good advice. And going back to the comment about women in veterinary medicine is so interesting because now, isn’t it 93% of veterinarian graduates are female?

Yes. And I think that we need to do what we can to encourage more men into this profession. I’ve said this many times, I’ll say it again because I think it’s so important. I think veterinary medicine is one of the most fulfilling professions on the planet. And why is that? You get to combine science, medical knowledge and compassion for people and for animals, and you get to make a huge impact in a place in the world that not everyone gets to do. Even the one health concept, I don’t think most people really understand that other than veterinarians, but it’s about the intersection of animal, human, and environmental health. Veterinarians are in the perfect position to have a healthier globe, healthier people within the world, healthier animals within the world, and a healthy environment which we all live.

That is a huge opportunity for anybody who’s wanting impact. And if that impact is just at the local level, doing those same principles in your local community, helping the people in your community, being a leader in your community, helping the people and the animals in the environment in your local community be healthier, what better calling is that? I think it’s very, very fulfilling, and I would encourage anyone that sounds appealing to to pursue this career.

Well, I agree. We do need to get more men into the profession. I’m glad you mentioned that because I don’t hear people say that a lot, but I agree. I think that’s right.

Eleanor, you chaired the ADMA AAVMC Veterinary Futures Commission. What are the most pressing challenges and opportunities you see for the veterinary profession in the next decade?

Well, I’ll start out with one health. Just saying that, is I think veterinarians are challenged and have a wonderful opportunity to help the world understand what one health really means and everyone’s role in that, not just veterinarians, but certainly, in human health and environmental health and in veterinary health, how we can sustain this planet for all of us in a very healthy way. So I think that’s a huge one.

We’ve already touched on this too, but I think some of the greatest challenges and opportunities are how we operate in an exponentially changing world to the best advantage of all. We can’t just be all over the place and not have a focus and a direction. But we do, for the health of our profession and the health of our practices and our individuals, we need to be receptive to new opportunities that present themselves to us. We must become adaptable. I’ll put that as a challenge. We have to become adaptable. And I heard a talk one time on the adaptability quotient, which now I’m learning more about and speaking about, but the adaptability quotient now has been shown to trump EQ and IQ. We used to think it was just your intellect, and then we found out that your emotional intelligence actually trumped IQ after a certain level, and now we’re that AQ, or your adaptability quotient trumps both. So we have to help people within this profession become more adaptive. And I think that translates to our mental health. We have a lot of mental health challenges, but if we can help veterinarians, clients, if we can help everybody become adaptable, that’s going to be a tremendous gift.

And I think we need to think about the technologies, the incorporation of technologies in what we’re doing. I think that has very broad implication, but that’s a huge challenge.

And then the other one I think is really important, and I could go on, but I’m going to stop with this one, we have got to keep our eye on being client and patient-centered. I think it’s very easy for us to learn all these wonderful things we learn and then want to apply what we want to give to our clients and patients, and what we want to do for them without listening to what they want. And we have got to become very sensitive of what they want. One great example of that, our profession has had an unbelievable debate about telemedicine, and I’ll include that as an opportunity and a challenge as well. Our patients, owners, our clients are going to demand telemedicine. I went to the hospital with my husband the other day. They asked three questions. They said, “Give me your name and identification. Give me your insurance, and do you want telemedicine?” Three questions now. Telemedicine is huge. It provides better care for animals and people as an adjunct to in-person care. It’s not going to ever replace it, but it’s going to be a great supplement.

So telemedicine, we’ve got to get over our fear and our rejection of telemedicine in the future. And I personally think that involves the veterinary-client-patient relationship. I don’t want to get into that too much, but what I will say, I was at a meeting one time and I asked this big crowd of people, I said, “I want anybody in this crowd who has not created a virtual client-patient relationship sometime in their career to raise their hand.” Not a single hand went up. So I think what we’ve got to wrap our heads around is that if we approve a VCPR, it is not going to be the way we do things at all times. It is going to allow veterinarians to use their judgment to see when a patient and a client need that in order to provide the care that animal needs and would not receive otherwise. That’s all. That’s all it’s meant to do.

Well, I had a telemedicine appointment yesterday with my doctor just because I didn’t want to drive there. Had a lot to do here at work, and I called and said, “Can I have an appointment? Can it be telemedicine?” And it was like a five-minute appointment and it would have taken me 30 minutes to drive there and back. So it just saved time, and I really appreciated that.

Yeah, I got a story about that. When I was at College Station, I had a primary care physician that I absolutely adored. He’s wonderful, wonderful. And I asked him along the path, this is several years ago, I said, “Are you going to do telemedicine?” He said no. And I said, “Why not?” And he said, “I love my model.” And I said, “Well, I like your model too. You’re very receptive. You’re always available if we need your help. You’re a great diagnostician. Your communications are great. Love your model, but I’m going to ask you a question. If I’m at home and I wake up and it’s flu season, I feel like I’m getting the flu. I could do a home flu test and it says, “Yes, you have the flu.” Would it be okay if I call your office and I say, “My home flu test was positive. Would you please right now call the pharmacy and let me get an antiviral drug?” And then also I could call the pharmacy and then they could deliver it by drone, or I could have an Uber service or I could not have to get out of my pajamas or out of bed and not only make me worse and more tired, but expose others.” I said, “Would that be okay with you?” And he said, “Sure.” And I said, “Well, then you love telemedicine.”

And I think that’s the other thing we forget, is that we don’t really fully understand the definition of telemedicine when we say, “Are we going to do it? Do we like it?” And quite frankly, every veterinarian has been using telemedicine since time began in their practices. So I think we got to have the open to discussion. And I think that’s the other thing I love about the Veterinary Innovation Council, is that we held some… We took on telemedicine as our first initiative and we held some cross-industry forums, and I think those are important to get differing views. We can never sweep opposing views under the rug or never criticize opposing views. What we’ve got to do is get in the same room together and discuss how do you feel? Tell me why you feel what you feel. Here’s how I feel and why I feel what I feel. And I think both people would, in almost every case, move towards the middle more. But instead, we tend to take these stands and we continue to argue in the literature and we don’t get together.

That’s another challenge I see. We have got to be open to criticism. We’ve got to be open to debate. We got to get different people with different opinions and different training together to discuss and come out with the best outcomes. And if there’s one thing that’s going to shape our future better, that’s it.

That makes so much sense. Eleanor, your numerous awards and recognitions reflect a career of profound impact. Which of these honors holds the most personal significance and why?

I get pretty humbled, and it’s really hard to talk about myself, and I will say that it’s been amazingly fulfilling to be recognized in ways that you don’t ever work for a recognition. You work to make impact. And it’s always humbling when someone says, “You know you made an impact.” I’ve been surprised at every recognition I’ve ever received, and they’ve all been significant in different ways.

The one most people ask me about or comment on is my induction into the National Cowgirl Hall of Fame with a presence in the National Cowgirl Museum. What’s exciting about that is I was the first and remain the first and only veterinarian to be included in this group, and I’m really humbled by fellow honorees. And a lot of people don’t understand what that induction means. Some of my fellow honorees are Sandra Day O’Connor, Georgia O’Keeffe, Reba McEntire, and then of course, Annie Oakley and Dale Evans.

I will tell you one funny story. I had a student who introduced me, and every time I get introduced now, somebody adds that in. Even if they only have one sentence, they have to add that. And I was being introduced by a student who introduced me as having been inducted into the National Cowgirl Hall of Fame, and I love humor, and that was so much fun. And she was absolutely mortified and we had so much fun. I think she felt good about it, but that’s the one that most people hone in on, and it certainly means a lot to me.

I love that. [inaudible 00:45:58] was a hilarious story too.

Yeah, it is. And I think why does it mean so much to me? Because I think all you want to do is make an impact. You work your whole life just to be a positive influence around you, and that’s the one that demonstrates an impact beyond our profession on a national scale, on a broader scale that usually may not occur within the profession itself or may not be recognized. I’ve always felt that veterinarians should not limit their service to the veterinary profession, but work throughout livestock industries and other groups to actually spread the knowledge of our profession and to contribute in the ways that veterinarians can do so. Yeah. That one meant a lot to me.

Well, given your wealth of experience, what advice would you give to young professionals entering veterinary school or contemplating a career in the field?

I always encourage young people to follow their dreams, and we touched on that earlier, and if that dream includes a career in veterinary medicine, do it. I do all I can to encourage them. I tell young people, “This is your life.” Just like we mentioned earlier, this is your life. Follow the path you want and follow it with courage. There have been so many excellent young people who would have made great veterinarians who were deterred by those around them who discouraged them from entering this profession who would have been wonderful in this profession. I’ll give you an example of that. The Pre-Veterinary club at Texas A&M had 500 members. I spoke to them every year. And every year when I speak to them, my first question is, “Have you ever been discouraged from becoming a veterinarian? You’re all in the Pre-Vet club, 500 of you sitting here. Any of you ever been discouraged from becoming a veterinarian?” Every hand went up, but five. 495 hands rose and said, “I’ve been discouraged from entering this profession.” My next question, you know what it’s going to be, who discourages you? Veterinarians. Why is that?

Any of those veterinarians, if you asked them if they would do it again, they would say yes. If you ask them if they love this profession, they would say yes. I tell these students, I said, “Look, find a job you love and you’ll never have to work a day in your life.” I told my children that, and I can honestly say in my career, there’s not have been a single day that I have not loved going to work. Did that mean it was problem-free? No. Did that mean I might dread some of the things I had to do that day? Yes, it might have meant that, but I loved what I did. This is a wonderful profession. I have loved working in it.

So I would encourage veterinarians to encourage young people. I would encourage faculty to encourage young people, and there are many examples of that. A lot of times, faculty will say, “You shouldn’t be a general practitioner. You should be a specialist. Don’t go into equine because you don’t make enough money and you work too hard.” And they tell them for all the wrong reasons. I think our job, whether it’s in academia or in private practice, is to help young people along their path, help identify their dreams and aspirations and help guide them along that path. And that should not be discouragement about the profession. And there’s nothing that disappoints me more, but I think that’s the biggest advice I would give to young professionals.

I think the other thing that I would say is integrity in all you do. Find integrity, and that is a baseline. I saw something, again, this would have been years ago, and we always talk about integrity matters, and I saw one that was different than that. And it said if you lack integrity, nothing else matters. And I’ll tell you that one hit home, and especially as we’re hiring associates or faculty members, and you see someone whose resume, their CV is two inches thick, their accomplishments are unbelievable, but they have a lack of integrity. There is no level of performance you can achieve, no number of publications, no amount of research dollars, no number of cases you can see that can overcome a lack of integrity. So I tell students that you just have to be honest in what you’re doing.

Yeah, I agree. That’s so important. That’s the foundation of our core values here. And what you said about find a job that you love and you’ll never have to work a day in your life, somebody gave that advice to me early in my career when I was in my 20s. I’ll never forget it, and it’s so true. So great advice.

Eleanor, as you reflect on your career and look toward the future, what legacy do you hope to leave and what excites you most about where veterinary medicine is headed?

Well, I never thought about leaving a legacy, and so it’s really hard, again, I am pretty humble about things, so it’s really hard to talk about any impact I’ve had. But I’ll tell you a couple things, two more stories that I’ll tell you. When I was at Mississippi State University, an equine surgeon came from Liverpool, England as a visiting professor. He was supposed to stay six months. He stayed for a couple of years. This guy was delightful. He was very talented and excellent, and I respected him so much, admired him so much, and he told me I was good. First person along my entire path that told me I was good. That was so powerful. And so as a legacy, I want to be known for somebody who tells others they’re good, who encourages others, who make an impact. And interestingly, when I was at University of Missouri, we had a young intern. He was the brightest, most productive intern I had ever seen, ever. And I told him, I was encouraging him that he needed to stay in academia. He was so bright. He had such promise. He needed to be in academia. And he said, “You’re the first person who ever told me I was good.”

So I think if there’s a legacy, it’s about encouraging others. Find the good and praise it. How can you encourage others to be all they can be? And that’s the legacy I want. I actually talked to Aaron Wallace the other day, and he is so bright and you never think about having an impact on him, but I got to talk to him on many occasions through the Veterinary Innovation Summit and afterwards, and he talked about the impact I’d had on his career. That’s the legacy I want. Funny story about Aaron Wallace is that he was laughingly saying maybe he’d like to transfer to Texas A&M. And so we laughed and joked about that and Mark Stetter, the then dean at Colorado State where Aaron was a student, he loves practical jokes. I do too. But what I did was we got all the paperwork for transferring and I filled out all the paperwork for Aaron to transfer to Texas A&M, and I sent it to him for his signature. And of course, that wasn’t what we were going to do, but it was fun. But that’s what I would like to be known for.

I love that. Find the good and praise it. Be encouraging to others. Eleanor, what has been the most surprising thing to you during your career in the veterinary profession?

I think the most surprising thing, and this is going to sound a little bit negative but it’s not negative, but the most surprising thing has been the reluctance to change among progressive people. And in a way, it’s not surprising because people are inherently, they resist resistant to change, just inherently. So I don’t know why I’m surprised by that, but when you come across people who have done a lot, they’re very progressive, they do great research, they make great changes in the profession, we’re all still change resistant, and that surprises me every single time. It shouldn’t, but it does.

So how have you seen the profession change over the years you’ve been involved?

Oh, dramatically. I’ve seen the profession change from a time when private practitioners were single practitioners. There weren’t group practices. There weren’t corporate practices. And quite frankly, there were great limitations in what the possibilities were. I think we have very appropriately taken what is good from human medicine without trying to become human medicine. And I think we have maintained the charm and the direction of veterinary medicine in the most positive way, and yet, we draw from others around us.

The other thing is the importance of technologies that we talked about. When I was at A&M, we created five positions for engineering students. Now, that would have been staggering to people a few years ago, but now, we understand why that’s important. We truly need biomedical engineers. We need those types of differences and we need diversity.

I think speaking of diversity, that’s another thing that is changing but not fast enough, but is a focus on diversity and how important it is for our profession to achieve an appropriate diversity. What does that mean? Typically, the definition is it reflects the environment around you. And we’re not there yet, but we are certainly making strides there. I think anyone who wants to be a veterinarian should be able to be a veterinarian. It doesn’t matter what they look like.

When people asked me what were my goals of diversity at Texas A&M because we did create an office of diversity and got training for a lot of people and we made some headway. And I said, “My definition of diversity, equity, inclusion is that every single person who crosses this threshold, whether it’s a student, a faculty member, a staff member, or a visitor to the college, every single person crossed that threshold and said, “I feel comfortable here. I’m home. I can achieve what I want to achieve within these walls.” That is the definition of diversity, and we’ve moved that needle in our profession a lot over the years, but we still have work to do.

What does your crystal ball say about the future of the veterinary profession?

I’ll touch on some things here. I think the profession is positioned for a very bright future, a very successful future. And because animals are important in our world, veterinary medicine is relevant and veterinary medicine is resilient. And if you look back years… I love to look at history and draw from examples in history, but veterinary medicine emerged out of equine and it emerged out of taking care of workhorses. Now, there’s a greater history farther back than that, but this is in our memorable lifetime, so to speak, maybe a little farther back than that, but it evolved around horses. And when the horse started to get replaced by mechanization, people predicted that the profession would cease to exist. Did it? No. Is it going to cease to exist ever? No, because we’re always going to have animals on this planet and somebody has got to assure their health.

Another debate that’s out there, and I don’t mind touching on this, even though it is a bit controversial, is whether there’s a shortage of veterinarians. I would say absolutely, yes, there’s a shortage. And there are two conflicting studies out there. One says there is, one says there isn’t, but you just ask a veterinarian who can’t hire an associate. You ask a client who can’t get an appointment for six weeks, and there’s your answer for one thing.

And for the other thing that I would throw out there is that every single study that has been done, very well-designed studies, but every single one that has been done to say, do we have a shortage of veterinarians? Whether that’s come out as an oversupply or demand or whatever it is, every single one, even from the Arthur D. Little report a gazillion years ago, they all said there’s not a shortage. And in many cases, there are too many veterinarians, and every single one of them is proved to be wrong. Why is that? This is my humble opinion. I think one reason is that, number one, I don’t think we take into account the scope of veterinary medicine when we do those studies. And I also don’t think we take into account the evolution of veterinary medicine, and we do continue to evolve and we create more and more opportunities. You look going from a single practice owner to specialists to specialty hospitals, to there was a veterinarian on the team that sent the first monkey into outer space. There are veterinarians now working in World Health Organization and working on one health initiative and testifying before Congress on epidemics. Our future is bright and we need a lot more of us.

And I’ll tell you one more story about that, but when I was president of the AAVC, our theme for that meeting was are there too many residents? Are we producing too many residents? And should we in fact scale back and limit the number of residencies that a veterinary school can have? And so that’s staggering to me. It’s absolutely staggering that that was a conversation. And so I raised my hand as all these discussions went on, and I said, “How many of you have had a resident that finished your program that did not get a job?” Not a single hand went up. What are we scared of? What are we worried about? And you know what happened? That is what allowed residents, allowed specialists to spill over into private practice, which improved our profession and brought high level care to local communities rather than to 28 vet schools located and distributed around the country. That was a really good thing. And if we had limited that, imagine where we’d been today.

So I think our crystal ball is that it’s a very bright profession. We’re relevant, we’re resilient. We need to keep our eye on the future and keep graduating great veterinarians prepared to take advantage of all the opportunities that are in this profession, including those we’re not serving well now.

Well, I agree with you. I first noticed the shortage of veterinarians back in 2008 during the Great Recession, and I’ve experienced it firsthand because my phone rings off the hook all day every day with people that are trying to find a veterinarian and can’t. They’ve been running ads and looking sometimes for a year, 18 months, two years. One day, I sat in my office and I Googled, because I was talking to somebody and he had done this and he said, “I want you to do this,” he said, “Just take every state in the country and Google Texas shortage of veterinarians, California shortage of veterinarians, and just do that state by state by state. See how many articles come up on Google about veterinarian shortages.” So I did that. We started just to find all these articles in different states about shortages of veterinarians. So I agree that there is a shortage.

So I’ve got a few questions about your own personal career, and I’d like to know what are a few of your own daily habits that you believe have allowed you to achieve success along the way?

Well, I mentioned taking inventory of your life every day. And I mentioned for others, I’ll mention for me, is absolute dedication to honesty and integrity in everything you do in every day of your life. And I think that’s important. I think another is humility. I think you have to remain humble. I think it was Bush 41 who talked about nobody wants a leader with a big head. You want a humble leader, and I think he exemplified that very well. And I try to draw from other leaders that I admire with examples. One leader, I always like some of the unconventional leaders, is D. Wayne Lucas, the winningest horse thoroughbred trainer in history, quite frankly. And I asked him one day, I said, “Wayne,” I said, “To what do you attribute your success?” And he said, “I’ve never seen a successful person that did not have energy, enthusiasm and intensity.” I’ve always tried to maintain my energy, my enthusiasm for this profession and attack it with intensity. And so I related to that so beautifully.

And I think another one is devotion to culture and culture creation as a leader. All I ever wanted to be was a really good equine veterinarian. That’s it. And when I was at the University of Missouri and I got a call from the University of Tennessee to become a department head and a hospital director, and I thought, “Oh my, I love patients. I love clients. I love my research. What am I going to do?” But I found myself in a position where I had been the one that a lot of the technicians came to with their problems and I couldn’t fix them. I would say, “Look, I’ll listen, but I’m not in a position to fix those.” And I said, “Well, you know what? If you are ever going to complain and you have an example to make a difference, you’ve got to step up and do it.” And so I entered leadership, academic leadership, with an obligation to make a difference.

And when you say what surprised you the most? One of the most surprising things I ever had was when somebody came to me with a problem. I thought it was a problem too, others thought it was a problem, and I changed it in five minutes with a stroke of a pen. And I thought, “Wow. That was easy.” All change isn’t easy. But sometimes, it’s just tackling the problem.

And I think the other thing, I always told, and this is something I practiced and I have practiced this since I was in practice but even more when I became Dean, is I told my team, I said, “Your job is to challenge me and challenge me every day. We can’t get better if it’s like the Emperor’s new clothes and we don’t tell each other what we think and what we think is better.” And it’s that collection of ideas from very smart people that can lead us in the right direction. So creating a culture of excellence, of enthusiasm, of intensity, of honesty and integrity and of receptivity to challenge. And I think that’s as big as any of them.

There’s so many times when people walk a wide path around their leaders and don’t share how they feel. They complain in the halls, but they don’t really share because they don’t think that their complaints would be heard, and they also don’t think there would be a difference. But you’ve got to create that culture of openness and transparency and receptivity, to not only conflict but to challenge, I think. And so I think that’s been enormously successful.

So careers, there can be highs and there can be lows throughout one’s career. I’m curious, what’s been the biggest challenge or the biggest adversity that you’ve dealt with throughout your career?

I got asked this in a job interview one time, and it started coming out before I thought about it. And the whole time I’m telling this story, I’m thinking, “God, I don’t know if I should tell this story or not.” But I was at another university, I won’t say where, but there was a technician who was there. He’d been there for 20 years. He was a technician who unloaded horses. He interacted with the clients. He knew horses. He could get them off trailers safely, and he was great. And he got hurt on the job and somebody told him he should ask for workman’s comp, and he did. He didn’t know anything about workman’s comp and so he explored it.

And the hospital director then, who I think lacked integrity, came to me right after lunch and said, “We want you to fire him by four o’clock this afternoon.” And I said, “Why?” And they said, “He’s abusing the system.” I said, “Well, what evidence do you have of that?” And he said, “Well, we had a private detective.” And I thought, “Oh my goodness gracious.” And so I said, “Look, he’s been here 20 years. I’ve never seen him do anything that wasn’t right aligned and in the right way. His colleagues like him, the veterinarians like him, the faculty like him. Nobody’s ever seen any of these behaviors.” And I said, “I don’t feel comfortable firing him.” And I turned to the man who reported to me who oversaw him, I said, “What do you think?” He said, “I’ve never seen him do anything and I don’t think we ought to fire him either.” And he said, “Well, you have to.” So I went to the dean and I said, “Look,” I said, “I don’t think this is a good idea. We have no evidence.” I said, “This is going to create a huge morale problem for those around who also don’t see evidence. I think this exposes us in an unhealthy way because I think that he could sue and he would win. And I don’t want to do it.” “Well, you have to do it.” I was ordered to fire him and I refused.

And I said, “Look,” I said, “Here’s the thing.” I said, “You’re my boss. I respect you. I respect your position. I respect your opinions. And if you feel very strongly about this, I’ll certainly step aside and let you do that and I won’t get in your way.” I said, “But I won’t do it.” And I think that’s back to integrity, that’s back to courage, that’s back to trying to do the right thing every day in everything you do. That’s back to compassion for others. It’s back to being fair. And I didn’t do it.

And so I was told in that interview this would affect my evaluation. And I also said, “Well, look, if this does go to suit, and I’m asked my opinion, I don’t have a choice but to give my opinion.” And they said, “Well, again, it’s going to affect your evaluation.” I said, “Well, are you asking me to commit perjury on a stand if it comes to that?” And anyway, he did sue, he got his job back, and everybody had a black eye. That still haunts me because I liked the dean. I liked the dean. I respected the dean, and I think he listened to the wrong person. And like I said, it haunts me because I didn’t think it was right, but I couldn’t do it. I could not bring myself to do it. And I’m happy about that piece, but I’m sad that I could not convince. I felt like I was not able to convince him of what to do well. So that was a big one in me.

Thank you for sharing that story. And it’s encouraging to see how you took a stand there in that situation. And I’m curious, what advice would you give the younger version of yourself?

Well, I think so many things we’ve already touched on. One is be yourself. Don’t let somebody try to turn you into somebody you don’t want to be. Have integrity in all things that you do. Don’t let people tell you what you can’t do. Do what you can do. Say yes. Say yes even when you’re not sure. You will learn along the way. Success… Who is this? Was it Winston Churchill who said success is moving from one failure to the next without loss of enthusiasm? Might have been him, I don’t know. But anyway, the quote remains. And so don’t be risk averse. Be receptive to risk, be receptive to change, and be confident even when you’re not sure. March ahead and make a difference. And in that, think about others. Make an impact. Do things that make an impact. Do not be selfish about your approach. Try to make an impact and try to help others along the way.

Such great advice. And Eleanor, some of our guests say that they’ve had a key book that they read that really helped them along their way. Do you have a key book in your life that has impacted you the most?

Many. Many. But one I read that I really like and I recommend to others was called The Corporate Mystic. And it’s an old book, but what it did was they interviewed a bunch of great corporate leaders, not good corporate leaders, but great corporate leaders. And they interviewed both, those that were considered great and those that were considered good to see what was the difference. And there were two things that really jumped off the page for me. One was integrity. You have to have integrity in all you do or you can’t be great. And we touched on that over and over and over and over, and I still believe it.

And here’s another one, and we’ve had some examples of that today. And the other one was if you look back over time, most really great leaders have challenged authority at an early age. And so I applied that to my children too. Now what does that mean? That doesn’t mean that you robbed a bank, or it doesn’t mean that you are not a good kid. It means that you question. You don’t accept everything just as it’s told to you. You question. You challenge the authority. You ask the questions. And I think those are two great lessons out of that.

There was another one that I read, and I didn’t ever seek this one out, but I was in… I love leadership books and I was looking for one, and here was this one with a white background and big red bold letters that said How Men Think. And I had to read that book. I got it out and read it, and here’s the premise, is that this was a woman who wrote this book and what she did, and this was years ago when women were entering corporate America on the very front edge, and she interviewed a bunch of men with women who were now entering the corporate environment, and she interviewed women who were the first to go in. I won’t tell you too much more than that. There were some great examples of that, but one of them was use humor. Don’t be intimidated. Don’t try to be a man. Try to be a woman, but know that you’re in that world and try to be understanding of others. It was a pretty powerful book for me, and I have liked that one too.

So interesting. Now I want to read that book. What you said about great leaders challenging authority, Dr. Peter Weinstein was on the last episode of this podcast and he said something very similar to that.

Yeah.

Well, Eleanor, you’ve got the mic. What is one thing that you want to share with our listeners of The People of Animal Health podcasts before you drop the mic today?

Okay. Well, I think one is that this profession is great. The future’s bright. I don’t need to go into that again because we’ve already said that.

I think another is we should encourage young people to be veterinarians, but we should also encourage young people in their passions. I know that horses were my passion, and fortunately, my parents supported my passion for horses. I think my first sentence was I want a pony. I got my first horse when I was nine, started riding lessons when I was seven. I’ve never been without a horse since, but I think that my first job was training horses for other people for $2 an hour, and I was in heaven. I think you learn. I learned so much around horses. I think animals and horses are the great teachers of life. I learned responsibility. I learned how to win. I learned how to lose. I learned that there aren’t shortcuts. And so I think encouraging young people in whatever their passion is is going to be a great foundation for this profession.

Then the last thing I would add on that is be a mentor. Find a mentor. My father was a wonderful mentor for me. He was just such an unbelievable person. He was a surgeon. He was an outdoorsman. And at 50, he became a paraplegic and nobody knew why. Just one minute he’s walking and next minute, he can’t walk. Never took another step. And he continued to work. He continued to be an inspiration for those around him. And I remember a minister one time who went to minister to him, left the room, came to me and he said, “Every time I come to minister to your dad, I leave having been ministered to.”

I’d like to end on that note because it’s not what happens to you, it’s how you deal with it. And whether it’s something as physical and health wise as becoming a paraplegic or whether it’s other challenges that you get, life isn’t challenge free, but you’re still who you are. Look at the people in California. How are they going to handle that now and how are they going to show who they are? Are they going to be destroyed by this terrible disaster or are they going to move on? And I certainly learned from my dad that regardless of your circumstances, you charge ahead and continue to be an example for and an inspiration for others.

I wish I could have met your dad.

Yeah, he was awesome.

Well, before we go, I have to ask you about Fiddle. How is Fiddle?

Fiddle’s right here in my lap. My husband, he said, “This is the coolest dog we’ve ever had.” I never wanted a min pen. I got a min pen, and now, I won’t be without him. They’re tough little dogs. They’re really interesting. They’re high energy. They’re cute as they can be. He’s very, very smart. But one thing about him is that this is the first dog I have ever had that I raised from puppyhood while I was working from home. So he is in my lap now. He’s in my lap every day. And it’s amazing the difference it makes in the life of any animal or of a child when you’re there with them a lot. So that’s another lesson in life, is spend time with those you love, whether it’s four-legged or two-legged.

I love that. Well, I always look forward to seeing you. I hope I get to see you at VMX, and I always look forward to seeing Fiddle.

Well, thanks Stacy for all you do, not only in bringing leaders to the profession like you do, but everything else you do to help our profession. Really appreciate you.

Well, thank you so much, Eleanor. It was a pleasure to have you as my guest here on The People of Animal Health podcast. Thank you for being here today.

Yes, thank you. All right, bye-bye.